The Fourth Way

I chat with my good friend, Ron, about why he comes close to being an anarchist who supports a free market. We take a look at the other side of the coin from our last episode, and talk about why capitalism so often gets a bad rap. 0:00:00 Introduction 0:7:30 War and violence inherent to government 0:10:10 True free market vs. government meddling 0:24:00 Why do libertarians want government if they just screw things up? 0:31:40 Why advocate a free financial market, but not a free association of government? 0:34:00 Governments are inherently destructive through fiscal policy (inflation and taxation) 0:53:00 Why is capitalism misconstrued as greedy and wasteful? 0:59:30 Is capitalism's wealth just plundered and exploited wealth? 1:13:45 How would a privatized society actually function? 1:29:30 Why are you a libertarian and not an anarchist? 1:46:00 Response to episode on communism 1:57:00 Closing

I had the opportunity to interview an old friend, Taylor Storey. Taylor has a lot of life experiences along with much study under his belt, so I picked his brain on the topic of communism. We discuss some of the good and the bad and try to sift through some of the propaganda surrounding it so we can more fairly compare it to capitalism in our next episode. 0:00 Episode Preview 17:00 Guest Intro and background 1:02:00 - Introduce government and communism discussion 1:23:00 - Rethinking communism 1:35:00 - What about force, legislation, and redistribution? 1:42:00 - Demerits of capitalism 1:55:30 - What about the negative examples of what communism leads to? 1:58:00 - Cuba 2:00:30 - U.S. manipulation of socialist countries 2:13:00 - Owner and consumer responsibilities 2:19:30 - Communism and capitalism are both wielded in empire seeking endeavors

Dr. Keown talks about his book, "Jesus in a World of Colliding Empires." We discuss government, violence, discipleship, and submission. Check out the show notes for resources and timestamps. 0:00 - My Intro 6:00 - Dr. Keown's Intro 8:00 - Discipleship and Individualism 12:25 - Why does the gospel seem difficult to share when there aren't consequences? 17:10 - Do government and religion always marry? 23:50 - Is government antithetical to the Kingdom? 32:45 - Government and violence go together 42:50 - How does submission under evil empire work? 57:45 - Revelation, empire, and submission 1:05:00 - Egalitarianism and submission

I take a look at four books which deal with empire and Kingdom: - C. Kavin Rowe's "World Upside Down" - Mark Keown's "Jesus in a World of Colliding Empires" - Sehyun Kim's "The Kingship of Jesus in the Gospel of John" - Soren Kierkegaard's "Attack Upon Christendom" Understanding the position of Christian Anarchism relies heavily on an accurate understanding of what empire is and how it functions.

We discuss how the spiritual is of a different quality than the physical, and how we have a double standard when applying this in the Bible. Our spiritual rebirth should change us for the better, but then so should it also change how we handle systems and structures, like government.

Cody Cook joins the show today to talk about a conservative view of anarchism. While many anarchists would be more theologically liberal, Cody talks about how we can arrive at anarchism while grounding that view in a conservative reading of the Bible. 0:00 - Preface 2:30 - Cody's Introduction 4:30 - Does a face value reading of the Bible give you a violent, statist God? 12:45 - Can enemy love be grounded in the character of God if his standards for it have changed over time? 23:00 - Is the Antenicene Church helpful in forming our beliefs, and if so, how do we choose what to accept and dismiss from them? 30:45 - The Antenicene Church helps us embrace diversity, unity, and humility. 34:00 - How do we deal with the fact that many Christian Anarchists dismiss or diminish the resurrection of Jesus? 44:30 - How do we relate with other Christian groups who are more liberal, which many anarchist and nonviolent groups are? 53:15 - The diversity of the anarchist community

Aree Spivey joins me for a discussion on anarchism, biblical interpretation, racism, CRT, and more. 0:00 - Intro 3:00 - Aree's Intro 11:00 - Inerrancy 21:00 - Is God nonviolent by nature or by decree? 39:50 - Eastern Orthodoxy and Sacralism 53:00 - Is nonparticipation in government violence towards the oppressed? 1:03:10 - CRT helps anarchism

I talk with the man who helped me get this whole podcast started, Craig Fickle. Craig talks about the early church and its shift towards seeking power through the sword and government. 0:00:00 My Introduction 0:4:00- Craig's Introduction 0:11:20 - Why should we care about the early church? 0:21:00 - What are some of the biggest differences between the Antenicene Church and the Post-Constantinian Church? 0:28:00 - Did Constantine change the church overnight, or was he just watering the seeds latent in the church? 0:38:10 - What is the Donatist Controversy and how does it inform our discussion of empire, orthodoxy, and ecumenicism? 0:49:45 - Are the Donatists or the Post-Constantinians the true/best representation of the true church? 0:56:15 - How do we know what orthodoxy is and what aspects of the faith handed down to us is the winners writing orthodoxy/history? 1:09:00 - What did disputes in the church look like prior to having access to the sword of the state? 1:013:45 - How has the power of the sword influenced our world today? What might the world look like today if Christians didn't bear the sword? 1:24:20 - Closing thoughts: The church changed, but empire remained the same.

I chat with Matthew Milioni of Followers of the Way. We focus primarily on positive anarchy, which is a topic I feel is often lacking in discussion. We know that government is evil, but what is the alternative? Check out our discussion for a look at what No King But Christ might look like. 0:00:00 Intro 0:04:00 Is abstention from government a shirking of our Christian duty to do good in the world? 0:16:00 Is it a false dichotomy to say we can't serve God AND government? 0:26:20 The impracticality of governmental pursuit and coercion vs. example 0:31:25 Voting as religion and the sacralism of the state 0:39:50 Voting as a tool to appease and silent the masses and quell civil uprisings 0:45:25 How government steals the credit and props itself up as savior in regard to societal good done by activists 0:48:35 Government is idealistic, and Jesus is a better and more practical savior than government 0:56:35 False dichotomy part 2: can't we serve God through government? 1:00:20 Democracy and voting are inherently coercive and factional, so what about decision making in the church? 1:08:55 If the police and laws do good and provide order in a fallen world, how do we navigate issues like legitimate lawsuits for damages, calling the police for intruders, or reporting sexual abuse? 1:24:15 Informing the state about crimes in their domain vs. petitioning the state to use their sword on my behalf 1:30:00 How do I maintain a consistent application of noncoercion to other areas, like parenting and spanking? 1:35:10 Isn't justifying spanking based on the benefit for my kids the same consequentialism Christians who vote use? 1:39:00 What about Jesus ruling with a rod of iron, and Christians ruling in the age to come? That sounds like we're wielding government and sword. 1:47:41 Christocentric vision as core 1:52:27 Matthew plugs his stuff 1:53:54 Outro

0:00:00 - Episode Intro 0:05:00 - Jay Newman Intro 0:15:30 - Complicity in the system 0:19:00 - Is Christian Anarchism retreatist? 0:30:30 - Consequentialism's willingness to compromise 0:37:30 - Coercion as top down vs. Discipleship as bottom up 0:44:00 - The Upside Down Kingdom as true power 0:48:45 - Ellul, Anarchism, and Propaganda 1:00:00 - Exiles in Babylon 1:01:45 - Avoiding negative anarchy for positive anarchy and kingdom building

I had the opportunity to speak with Joshua of Our Foundations podcast. We talk a lot about idealism, which is often a pejorative accusation levied at ideologies which seek to change the world. In this episode we dig into whether or not anarchism is a natural outworking of the idealistic Kingdom of God, and whether Christians should compromise on that ideal or pursue it. 0:00:00 - Introduction 0:12:45 - Christians should seek idealism and perfection, despite its unattainability 0:18:00 - Why don't we teach pursuing the ideal in governing our world, but we teach pursuing the ideal in regard to things like adultery/lust and murder/hate? 0:22:00 - Reverse incarnation as hope and hypocrisy as a lack of pursuing the ideal 0:24:30 - how do you know which ideal to embrace when there are competing idealisms? 0:29:40 - The practical nature of the Kingdom of God and his orderly universe 0:40:40 - Cycle of individualism vs the cycle of institutionalism 0:46:00 - Flipping the script: the idealism of the statists and just war adherents 0:56:00 The practical nature of God's kingdom 1:01:00 - The alternative of no government seems worse 1:05:00 - The market as organization rather than state 1:20:00 - Free markets incentivize non-discrimination 1:31:45 - Cycles in human history 1:38:00 - Outro and plugs

I had the opportunity to interview John Dangelo of the Anti-War War Vet (link in show notes). We discuss empire, honoring soldiers, Christianity, Lysander Spooner, and moral injury (see timestamps). 0:00 - Introduction 6:20 - Pacifism vs anti-war 9:45 how our freedoms and security are hampered by protecting our freedom through military action 20:30 - Diffusion of responsibility as cogs in a wheel that run the machinery 26:30 - inalienable rights aren't inalienable, as we don't apply them to other groups 31:45 - Smedley Butler 34:15 - Is war a racket? 41:20 - Taxes, contracts, and Lysander Spooner's "No Treason" 47:30 - Moral injury and the cost of state violence

Zack Johnson of Sattler College joins me to discuss his transition out of the military, what precipitated that, and how he views the compatibility of Christianity and the military. 1:30 Introduction 5:40 Zack's testimony 18:20 Why Romans 13 wasn't convincing 23:00 Can a Christian remain in the military? 24:20 The first recorded conscientious objector 29:30 Idolatry in the military 32:30 Using God to sanction violence 33:15 Martin of Tours 37:00 Can you associate with those who aren't nonviolent? 45:20 Early Christians are the best citizens and submit to government 47:30 If Christians left government, what would happen to all the good the government does? 49:30 What is human security? 50:45 Holistic aid 55:00 Incarnation and community 57:00 Link between poverty and violence 58:45 Two kingdoms and spiritual schizophrenia 1:02:15 Consequentialist morality and government as a diffusion of responsibility 1:05:30 How do you avoid retreatism?

My conversation with Dr. Christoyannopoulos moved me to work out something I've been thinking about for a long time in regard to morality and purpose. Something clicked for me in our conversation and I thought I'd share it in an episode. These are nascent thoughts and there's a lot to work through, but hopefully it's a good start. The basic thesis is that all current moral systems proposed are inherently arbitrary in their grounding, and all moral systems currently proposed undercut commonsense notions of altruism. Moral systems are groundless and fail to account for other/community. In this episode, I propose a system which gives us purpose/grounding, and which embraces meaningful altruism. This is vital for Christian anarchists to understand, as a moral system which is arbitrary and non-altruistic undercuts the rationale for anarchists to avoid the consequentialist/pragmatic morality that justifies the actions they so vehemently despise. 0:00 - Introduction 7:45 - Incoherence of Current Moral Theories 8:20 - Virtue Ethics & Arbitrariness 9:25 - Consequentialism & Arbitrariness 10:15 - Deontological & Arbitrariness 12:45 - Virtue Ethics & Egoism 19:20 - Deontology & Egoism 21:30 - Consequentialism & Egoism 26:05 - How does the resurrection fix arbitrariness and egoism? 27:40 - Purpose and existence in creation 30:40 - Separation from purpose and existence 33:45 - What the resurrection gets us - theosis 40:40 - Existence and pure nature are required for purpose and morality 46:20 - Privation theory of evil 51:20 - Isn't hope in resurrection a self-centered hope? 1:00:05 - Resurrection prevents the sacrifice of other 1:10:15 - Means are concomitant with their ends 1:11:50 - Conclusion 1:14:15 - Implications on Christian Anarchism and Othering

I had the opportunity (thanks to Rebekah Mui) to speak with Dr. Christoyannopoulos about his work which surveys Christian anarchism. If you haven't checked out his book, it's a great jumping off point. Check out the show notes for more links. 0:00 - My Introduction and Preface 17:00 - Participant Introductions 20:30 - How did the book come about? 26:40 - Christian Anarchism connected to Liberation Theology 30:40 - Parties cherry-pick critiques of the state 36:30 - Post-anarchism 39:30 - How can CA contribute to modern Christian politics 44:40 - General and specific loves of groups 51:50 - Othering, domination, and hierarchy 58:00 - Anarchy and compulsory vaccinations 1:05:15 - Resource recommendations