Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show

I considered this question from notes I prepared two years ago for a formal debate on the topic with a Calvinist minister. My approach is more as a discussion than a debate due to the fact that four issues must be resolved before we could properly debate the question, "Is the God of Mormonism the God of the Bible?" They are: 1. Which Bible? 2. What is the Biblical concept of Deity? 3. What is the Mormon concept of Deity? 4. Are we referring to the identity of God or to divergent views of God's attributes and actions? Callers and Email: 1. The reasoning behind non-LDS Christian arguments that Mormons are not Christians; divergent concepts of salvation. 2. A caller and I disagreed on two main points: That the belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers demeans Jesus; and that the belief that Jesus created Satan out of nothing, flawed such that Jesus knew Satan would fall and become the author of evil, makes Jesus the creator, or the one responsible for all evil. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 11 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world. Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

I considered this question from notes I prepared two years ago for a formal debate on the topic with a Calvinist minister. My approach is more as a discussion than a debate due to the fact that four issues must be resolved before we could properly debate the question, "Is the God of Mormonism the God of the Bible?" They are: 1. Which Bible? 2. What is the Biblical concept of Deity? 3. What is the Mormon concept of Deity? 4. Are we referring to the identity of God or to divergent views of God's attributes and actions? Callers and Email: 1. The reasoning behind non-LDS Christian arguments that Mormons are not Christians; divergent concepts of salvation. 2. A caller and I disagreed on two main points: That the belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers demeans Jesus; and that the belief that Jesus created Satan out of nothing, flawed such that Jesus knew Satan would fall and become the author of evil, makes Jesus the creator, or the one responsible for all evil. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 11 November 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world. Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Defining Mormon Concepts of Deity In this episode I compare and contrast Mormon concepts of Deity with those terms used in the historic Christian debate to identify some of the many views argued during the past 1800 years. I define and discuss, as related to Mormon views, such terms as: trinitarian, unitarian, binitarian, monotheism, polytheism, tritheism, henotheism, modalism, monarchianism, homoousian, homoiousion. My interest in the history, evolution and debate of these ideas has lead to my attempt to define the Mormon concepts of Deity.  Due to the fact that there have been developments of doctrinal concepts from 1829 to the present, in this episode, I focus on the first period, 1829 to 1844, the ministry of Joseph Smith. Callers: What is monarchianism? What about Brian Hale's comment that polygamy was a commandment from 1852-c.1890 after which, for some 14 years, it was an option rather than a command, before it was discontinued entirely. What was the second manifesto of 1904? This caller falsely claimed that I am a Darwinist and thus cannot believe in God. I have denied his allegations several times previously. He proclaimed his belief that Adam is God. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 28 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world. Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Defining Mormon Concepts of Deity In this episode I compare and contrast Mormon concepts of Deity with those terms used in the historic Christian debate to identify some of the many views argued during the past 1800 years. I define and discuss, as related to Mormon views, such terms as: trinitarian, unitarian, binitarian, monotheism, polytheism, tritheism, henotheism, modalism, monarchianism, homoousian, homoiousion. My interest in the history, evolution and debate of these ideas has lead to my attempt to define the Mormon concepts of Deity.  Due to the fact that there have been developments of doctrinal concepts from 1829 to the present, in this episode, I focus on the first period, 1829 to 1844, the ministry of Joseph Smith. Callers: What is monarchianism? What about Brian Hale's comment that polygamy was a commandment from 1852-c.1890 after which, for some 14 years, it was an option rather than a command, before it was discontinued entirely. What was the second manifesto of 1904? This caller falsely claimed that I am a Darwinist and thus cannot believe in God. I have denied his allegations several times previously. He proclaimed his belief that Adam is God. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 28 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world. Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

Defining Mormon Concepts of Deity In this episode I compare and contrast Mormon concepts of Deity with those terms used in the historic Christian debate to identify some of the many views argued during the past 1800 years. I define and discuss, as related to Mormon views, such terms as: trinitarian, unitarian, binitarian, monotheism, polytheism, tritheism, henotheism, modalism, monarchianism, homoousian, homoiousion. My interest in the history, evolution and debate of these ideas has lead to my attempt to define the Mormon concepts of Deity.  Due to the fact that there have been developments of doctrinal concepts from 1829 to the present, in this episode, I focus on the first period, 1829 to 1844, the ministry of Joseph Smith. Callers: What is monarchianism? What about Brian Hale's comment that polygamy was a commandment from 1852-c.1890 after which, for some 14 years, it was an option rather than a command, before it was discontinued entirely. What was the second manifesto of 1904? This caller falsely claimed that I am a Darwinist and thus cannot believe in God. I have denied his allegations several times previously. He proclaimed his belief that Adam is God. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 28 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world. Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.

God as a Close Personal Father For me personally, one of the most powerful concepts taught by Joseph Smith concerns the relationship between God and man - the concept resulting in the Primary song, "I am a child of God." For me personally, one of the most powerful concepts taught by Joseph Smith concerns the relationship between God and man - the concept resulting in the Primary song, "I am a child of God." Jesus encountered a Jewish society wherein the current views of God, the result of several centuries of evolution, placed a giant gulf between God and man. To first century Jews, God was transcendent. In theology this term refers to the degree of difference between God and the physical world and mankind. The higher the concept of transcendence, the greater the gulf between God and man. Many have, and do, believe God's transcendence is such that, to man, God is beyond all comprehension; completely unknowable; that he is "wholly other;" he is the Creator, and we are the creation. Jesus eradicated this gulf by declaring a close relationship between God and man unheard of in ancient Israel. Jesus spoke of God as even more anthropomorphic than that found in the most ancient Israelite belief before the several centuries just preceding the Chrisitan era when the concept of a transcendent God developed. During his ministry Jesus introduced God as his personal Father, and the personal Father of his disciples. His view was not just that God is our personal Father, but that he is our close personal Father to be addressed with a term no Jew would have considered using for God. Along the way, the early Christian church discarded Jesus' view and restored the concept of transcendence, even to what may well be the ultimate degree. During Joseph Smith's efforts to restore primitive Christianity, he re-introduced, with great clarity, the concept taught by Jesus, including a new dimension. The research of highly respected modern non-Mormon New Testament scholars, and modern translations of the New Testament have provided considerable insight into Jesus' unique view of man's relationship to God. I discuss the research published about 50 years ago which uncovered this lost concept of Jesus and startled many modern Christian scholars. I also present a number of striking sources including a number of modern renderings of relevant New Testament passages from some of the modern translations. Creator / creation relationship between man and God. Father / son relationship between man and God. Potential to transcend the position of a creation to be a son with the potential to become like our Father - God. Jesus's use of the Aramaic word "Abba" for God, his Father and our Father. Anthropomorphic concept of God. Callers and Email: Is not Book of Mormon theology trinitarian; discussion of different interpretations of the trinity and several Book of Mormon passages. This caller is moved more by the idea of our relationship to God as a Father than as God as a Creator, like the relationship of a painter to his painting. More on the theology of God in the Book of Mormon. How is Christ the Creator. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 21 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world. Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.  

God as a Close Personal Father For me personally, one of the most powerful concepts taught by Joseph Smith concerns the relationship between God and man - the concept resulting in the Primary song, "I am a child of God." For me personally, one of the most powerful concepts taught by Joseph Smith concerns the relationship between God and man - the concept resulting in the Primary song, "I am a child of God." Jesus encountered a Jewish society wherein the current views of God, the result of several centuries of evolution, placed a giant gulf between God and man. To first century Jews, God was transcendent. In theology this term refers to the degree of difference between God and the physical world and mankind. The higher the concept of transcendence, the greater the gulf between God and man. Many have, and do, believe God's transcendence is such that, to man, God is beyond all comprehension; completely unknowable; that he is "wholly other;" he is the Creator, and we are the creation. Jesus eradicated this gulf by declaring a close relationship between God and man unheard of in ancient Israel. Jesus spoke of God as even more anthropomorphic than that found in the most ancient Israelite belief before the several centuries just preceding the Chrisitan era when the concept of a transcendent God developed. During his ministry Jesus introduced God as his personal Father, and the personal Father of his disciples. His view was not just that God is our personal Father, but that he is our close personal Father to be addressed with a term no Jew would have considered using for God. Along the way, the early Christian church discarded Jesus' view and restored the concept of transcendence, even to what may well be the ultimate degree. During Joseph Smith's efforts to restore primitive Christianity, he re-introduced, with great clarity, the concept taught by Jesus, including a new dimension. The research of highly respected modern non-Mormon New Testament scholars, and modern translations of the New Testament have provided considerable insight into Jesus' unique view of man's relationship to God. I discuss the research published about 50 years ago which uncovered this lost concept of Jesus and startled many modern Christian scholars. I also present a number of striking sources including a number of modern renderings of relevant New Testament passages from some of the modern translations. Creator / creation relationship between man and God. Father / son relationship between man and God. Potential to transcend the position of a creation to be a son with the potential to become like our Father - God. Jesus's use of the Aramaic word "Abba" for God, his Father and our Father. Anthropomorphic concept of God. Callers and Email: Is not Book of Mormon theology trinitarian; discussion of different interpretations of the trinity and several Book of Mormon passages. This caller is moved more by the idea of our relationship to God as a Father than as God as a Creator, like the relationship of a painter to his painting. More on the theology of God in the Book of Mormon. How is Christ the Creator. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 21 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-t

God as a Close Personal Father For me personally, one of the most powerful concepts taught by Joseph Smith concerns the relationship between God and man - the concept resulting in the Primary song, "I am a child of God." For me personally, one of the most powerful concepts taught by Joseph Smith concerns the relationship between God and man - the concept resulting in the Primary song, "I am a child of God." Jesus encountered a Jewish society wherein the current views of God, the result of several centuries of evolution, placed a giant gulf between God and man. To first century Jews, God was transcendent. In theology this term refers to the degree of difference between God and the physical world and mankind. The higher the concept of transcendence, the greater the gulf between God and man. Many have, and do, believe God's transcendence is such that, to man, God is beyond all comprehension; completely unknowable; that he is "wholly other;" he is the Creator, and we are the creation. Jesus eradicated this gulf by declaring a close relationship between God and man unheard of in ancient Israel. Jesus spoke of God as even more anthropomorphic than that found in the most ancient Israelite belief before the several centuries just preceding the Chrisitan era when the concept of a transcendent God developed. During his ministry Jesus introduced God as his personal Father, and the personal Father of his disciples. His view was not just that God is our personal Father, but that he is our close personal Father to be addressed with a term no Jew would have considered using for God. Along the way, the early Christian church discarded Jesus' view and restored the concept of transcendence, even to what may well be the ultimate degree. During Joseph Smith's efforts to restore primitive Christianity, he re-introduced, with great clarity, the concept taught by Jesus, including a new dimension. The research of highly respected modern non-Mormon New Testament scholars, and modern translations of the New Testament have provided considerable insight into Jesus' unique view of man's relationship to God. I discuss the research published about 50 years ago which uncovered this lost concept of Jesus and startled many modern Christian scholars. I also present a number of striking sources including a number of modern renderings of relevant New Testament passages from some of the modern translations. Creator / creation relationship between man and God. Father / son relationship between man and God. Potential to transcend the position of a creation to be a son with the potential to become like our Father - God. Jesus's use of the Aramaic word "Abba" for God, his Father and our Father. Anthropomorphic concept of God. Callers and Email: Is not Book of Mormon theology trinitarian; discussion of different interpretations of the trinity and several Book of Mormon passages. This caller is moved more by the idea of our relationship to God as a Father than as God as a Creator, like the relationship of a painter to his painting. More on the theology of God in the Book of Mormon. How is Christ the Creator. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 21 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-t

Mormon Fundamentalism   My guest was Brian C. Hales, author of Modern Polygamy and Mormon Fundamentalism. We discussed this timely, diverse and little known topic. The question is often asked, Who are Mormon fundamentalists and what do they believe. The answer is far more complex than most would think. Hales has brought together a significant body of material to address this question. Many personalities and events have lead to the great diversity which exists among the many factions included by this broad term, "Mormon fundamentalism." We discussed many points of interest and importance in understanding the history and beliefs of this category within the Mormon tradition.   The beginnings of the Mormon fundamentalist movement. Is "fundamentalist" an appropriate term for the, so-called Mormon fundamentalists? The 1890 Woodruff Manifesto Authority issue, if one man holds the keys, as taught by Joseph Smith, who now holds those keys? Lorin Wooley claimed that a priesthood organization exists outside of the LDS Church with superior authority. Authorship of the Manifesto. Interpretations of the Manifesto: was it a revelation, the result of a revelation or a trick by Wilford Woodruff to deceive the U.S. Government. Issue of cohabitation after the 1890 Manifesto. Problems with the claims that the keys had been passed to Lorin Wooley and others in an 1886. Callers and Email: Art Bulla called to declare his claim that he is the only one who can authorize plural marriages; that he is the one mighty and strong and the Lord's anointed and those who do not accept this will be damned. He claimed that he was called to be an apostle in a stake meeting in North Carolina in 1976. He claimed that no LDS President since Wilford Woodruff has been the Lord's anointed; that the keys were somewhere out in the wilderness from 1890 to 1978; and that he (Art) appointed someone to give him the keys and the Lord's anointing. Splintering among the fundamentalist groups due to divergent claims of authority. There are many independent fundamentalists who do not belong to any of the several fundamentalist groups. They make many divergent claims. A disciple of Art Bulla called to support him. He claimed that the LDS Church fell into apostasy in 1978, but would not confirm nor deny whether David O. McKay was a true prophet, the Lord's anointed, holding the highest priesthood keys. A caller asked why anyone would be interested in all of this history of polygamy. A caller asked questions regarding the united order and law of consecration. Brian Hales' sister, a former fundamentalist, sent an email briefly mentioning her experience and point of view. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 14 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world. Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.    

Mormon Fundamentalism   My guest was Brian C. Hales, author of Modern Polygamy and Mormon Fundamentalism. We discussed this timely, diverse and little known topic. The question is often asked, Who are Mormon fundamentalists and what do they believe. The answer is far more complex than most would think. Hales has brought together a significant body of material to address this question. Many personalities and events have lead to the great diversity which exists among the many factions included by this broad term, "Mormon fundamentalism." We discussed many points of interest and importance in understanding the history and beliefs of this category within the Mormon tradition.   The beginnings of the Mormon fundamentalist movement. Is "fundamentalist" an appropriate term for the, so-called Mormon fundamentalists? The 1890 Woodruff Manifesto Authority issue, if one man holds the keys, as taught by Joseph Smith, who now holds those keys? Lorin Wooley claimed that a priesthood organization exists outside of the LDS Church with superior authority. Authorship of the Manifesto. Interpretations of the Manifesto: was it a revelation, the result of a revelation or a trick by Wilford Woodruff to deceive the U.S. Government. Issue of cohabitation after the 1890 Manifesto. Problems with the claims that the keys had been passed to Lorin Wooley and others in an 1886. Callers and Email: Art Bulla called to declare his claim that he is the only one who can authorize plural marriages; that he is the one mighty and strong and the Lord's anointed and those who do not accept this will be damned. He claimed that he was called to be an apostle in a stake meeting in North Carolina in 1976. He claimed that no LDS President since Wilford Woodruff has been the Lord's anointed; that the keys were somewhere out in the wilderness from 1890 to 1978; and that he (Art) appointed someone to give him the keys and the Lord's anointing. Splintering among the fundamentalist groups due to divergent claims of authority. There are many independent fundamentalists who do not belong to any of the several fundamentalist groups. They make many divergent claims. A disciple of Art Bulla called to support him. He claimed that the LDS Church fell into apostasy in 1978, but would not confirm nor deny whether David O. McKay was a true prophet, the Lord's anointed, holding the highest priesthood keys. A caller asked why anyone would be interested in all of this history of polygamy. A caller asked questions regarding the united order and law of consecration. Brian Hales' sister, a former fundamentalist, sent an email briefly mentioning her experience and point of view. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 14 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world. Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.    

Mormon Fundamentalism   My guest was Brian C. Hales, author of Modern Polygamy and Mormon Fundamentalism. We discussed this timely, diverse and little known topic. The question is often asked, Who are Mormon fundamentalists and what do they believe. The answer is far more complex than most would think. Hales has brought together a significant body of material to address this question. Many personalities and events have lead to the great diversity which exists among the many factions included by this broad term, "Mormon fundamentalism." We discussed many points of interest and importance in understanding the history and beliefs of this category within the Mormon tradition.   The beginnings of the Mormon fundamentalist movement. Is "fundamentalist" an appropriate term for the, so-called Mormon fundamentalists? The 1890 Woodruff Manifesto Authority issue, if one man holds the keys, as taught by Joseph Smith, who now holds those keys? Lorin Wooley claimed that a priesthood organization exists outside of the LDS Church with superior authority. Authorship of the Manifesto. Interpretations of the Manifesto: was it a revelation, the result of a revelation or a trick by Wilford Woodruff to deceive the U.S. Government. Issue of cohabitation after the 1890 Manifesto. Problems with the claims that the keys had been passed to Lorin Wooley and others in an 1886. Callers and Email: Art Bulla called to declare his claim that he is the only one who can authorize plural marriages; that he is the one mighty and strong and the Lord's anointed and those who do not accept this will be damned. He claimed that he was called to be an apostle in a stake meeting in North Carolina in 1976. He claimed that no LDS President since Wilford Woodruff has been the Lord's anointed; that the keys were somewhere out in the wilderness from 1890 to 1978; and that he (Art) appointed someone to give him the keys and the Lord's anointing. Splintering among the fundamentalist groups due to divergent claims of authority. There are many independent fundamentalists who do not belong to any of the several fundamentalist groups. They make many divergent claims. A disciple of Art Bulla called to support him. He claimed that the LDS Church fell into apostasy in 1978, but would not confirm nor deny whether David O. McKay was a true prophet, the Lord's anointed, holding the highest priesthood keys. A caller asked why anyone would be interested in all of this history of polygamy. A caller asked questions regarding the united order and law of consecration. Brian Hales' sister, a former fundamentalist, sent an email briefly mentioning her experience and point of view. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 14 October 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world. Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.    

An Encounter with Exmormon.org I discussed my rather extensive exchanges last month with participants on this popular anti-Mormon website. I made every effort to follow their rules which allow anonymity, do not allow defense of Mormonism and require posts to be respectful. I confined all of my comments to historical sources pertaining to the wording and intent of a sentence included in the endowment ceremony from 1845 to 1927.   I was denied anonymity and falsely accused of defending the LDS Church. The sources I provided on this point of history, which has nothing to do with basic Mormon claims, were completely ignored, and after being attacked with a steady barrage of insults and disrespect, my hands were tied (namely, I was refused access), and this mob proceeded with their assassination.My point, which I stated and re-stated many times, is that there is a substantial body of 19th century sources, Mormon and ex-Mormon, which say that the endowment included instruction for the participants to pray for God to avenge the blood of the prophets, and also a prayer to that effect. Some ex-Mormons had published and testified that the endowment included an oath by participants for themselves, not God, to avenge the blood of Joseph and Hyrum. I insisted that to come to a reasonable conclusion on this matter, all source material should be gathered, sifted and assessed. My claim that such sources even exist resulted in a remarkable response. The degree of their aggressiveness, their hatred, their rage and fury I found startling and somewhat troubling. Many tragedies, in the past and the present, begin with their type of incendiary words and end in horrific mob action or hate crimes.My policy on my talk show dramatically differs. All are welcome to call or email with a point of view. All views are allowed, regardless of whether I agree or disagree. And,  Mormonism may be attacked, defended, or a question may be asked or some point discussed.Callers:     Should the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution allow Mormons to practice their religion; plagarisms in the Book of Mormon; Book of Mormon historicity. Death, or blood oaths in the endowment ceremony in 1984? An exmormon claimed that he made an oath of secrecy in 1980 in the temple in which he agreed for his life to be taken if he divulged any temple secrets. I disagreed. He brought up the question of Brigham Young's involvement in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. This caller questioned me on my position, Do I represent the Church or myself?  

An Encounter with Exmormon.org I discussed my rather extensive exchanges last month with participants on this popular anti-Mormon website. I made every effort to follow their rules which allow anonymity, do not allow defense of Mormonism and require posts to be respectful. I confined all of my comments to historical sources pertaining to the wording and intent of a sentence included in the endowment ceremony from 1845 to 1927.   I was denied anonymity and falsely accused of defending the LDS Church. The sources I provided on this point of history, which has nothing to do with basic Mormon claims, were completely ignored, and after being attacked with a steady barrage of insults and disrespect, my hands were tied (namely, I was refused access), and this mob proceeded with their assassination.My point, which I stated and re-stated many times, is that there is a substantial body of 19th century sources, Mormon and ex-Mormon, which say that the endowment included instruction for the participants to pray for God to avenge the blood of the prophets, and also a prayer to that effect. Some ex-Mormons had published and testified that the endowment included an oath by participants for themselves, not God, to avenge the blood of Joseph and Hyrum. I insisted that to come to a reasonable conclusion on this matter, all source material should be gathered, sifted and assessed. My claim that such sources even exist resulted in a remarkable response. The degree of their aggressiveness, their hatred, their rage and fury I found startling and somewhat troubling. Many tragedies, in the past and the present, begin with their type of incendiary words and end in horrific mob action or hate crimes.My policy on my talk show dramatically differs. All are welcome to call or email with a point of view. All views are allowed, regardless of whether I agree or disagree. And,  Mormonism may be attacked, defended, or a question may be asked or some point discussed.Callers:     Should the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution allow Mormons to practice their religion; plagarisms in the Book of Mormon; Book of Mormon historicity. Death, or blood oaths in the endowment ceremony in 1984? An exmormon claimed that he made an oath of secrecy in 1980 in the temple in which he agreed for his life to be taken if he divulged any temple secrets. I disagreed. He brought up the question of Brigham Young's involvement in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. This caller questioned me on my position, Do I represent the Church or myself?  

An Encounter with Exmormon.org I discussed my rather extensive exchanges last month with participants on this popular anti-Mormon website. I made every effort to follow their rules which allow anonymity, do not allow defense of Mormonism and require posts to be respectful. I confined all of my comments to historical sources pertaining to the wording and intent of a sentence included in the endowment ceremony from 1845 to 1927.   I was denied anonymity and falsely accused of defending the LDS Church. The sources I provided on this point of history, which has nothing to do with basic Mormon claims, were completely ignored, and after being attacked with a steady barrage of insults and disrespect, my hands were tied (namely, I was refused access), and this mob proceeded with their assassination.My point, which I stated and re-stated many times, is that there is a substantial body of 19th century sources, Mormon and ex-Mormon, which say that the endowment included instruction for the participants to pray for God to avenge the blood of the prophets, and also a prayer to that effect. Some ex-Mormons had published and testified that the endowment included an oath by participants for themselves, not God, to avenge the blood of Joseph and Hyrum. I insisted that to come to a reasonable conclusion on this matter, all source material should be gathered, sifted and assessed. My claim that such sources even exist resulted in a remarkable response. The degree of their aggressiveness, their hatred, their rage and fury I found startling and somewhat troubling. Many tragedies, in the past and the present, begin with their type of incendiary words and end in horrific mob action or hate crimes.My policy on my talk show dramatically differs. All are welcome to call or email with a point of view. All views are allowed, regardless of whether I agree or disagree. And,  Mormonism may be attacked, defended, or a question may be asked or some point discussed.Callers:     Should the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution allow Mormons to practice their religion; plagarisms in the Book of Mormon; Book of Mormon historicity. Death, or blood oaths in the endowment ceremony in 1984? An exmormon claimed that he made an oath of secrecy in 1980 in the temple in which he agreed for his life to be taken if he divulged any temple secrets. I disagreed. He brought up the question of Brigham Young's involvement in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. This caller questioned me on my position, Do I represent the Church or myself?  

Personal Statement: Response to an ExMormon Critic A long time listener sent me a scathing email which he has published on the internet on exmormon.org, a rabidly anti-Mormon board, where I am refused participation. He claimed that I am a "puppet" and apologist for the LDS Church. I responded to his false charge by reviewing the 27 year policy of my talk show with comments on the involvement of LDS leaders in its content. Also, I listed and commented on some of my personal views, including those where I diverge from the Mormon mainstream. This is my candid effort to explain where I believe I fit in Mormonism, specifically expressing my attitude toward the Church. I read this email and also my written response. The author of the email called in and we discussed and disagreed on a number of his points. We discussed: My insistence that I defend my views, not the Church Oath of vengeance Blood oaths Mountain Meadows massacre John D. Lee's denial that Brigham Young ordered the MMM Hoffman's forged letter of Jonathan Dunham Other callers: This caller read some of the posts then being added to the exmormon.org about this discussion with the author of the email. Steve Benson and Ezra Taft Benson. Resolving religious issues through physical confrontation. Comment on the claim of religious leader, Warren Jeffs. Talk Show host: Van Hale, LDS Official website: http://www.mormonmiscellaneous.com/ Podcast address: http://www.mormonmisc.podbean.com/ Talk Show Blog: mormonmiscellaneous.com/radioprogramblog This is the 30 September 2007 episode of the Mormon Miscellaneous Worldwide Talk Show, now in its 28th year. To listen to future Talk Shows live, go to http://www.k-talk.com/ Sunday evenings 5:00 - 7:00 pm MST. If you have a question or comment, your participation is invited, regardless of your point of view. Your voice will be heard around the world. Click to visit my eStore Catalog of Digital Articles related to some of my Podcast Episodes To make a comment, click on “Comment” below.