Magness & Marcus on Coaching show

Magness & Marcus on Coaching

Summary: Coaches Steve Magness and Jon Marcus team up to bring you an insider's view on coaching. Taking you inside the thoughts and conversations that usually occur behind the scenes. They bring a diverse background having both worked with athletes at the collegiate and professional level. They hope to bring a mixture of science, old-fashioned wisdom, and a touch of philosophy to help understand the process of coaching and maximizing endurance performance. For more information visit www.ScienceOfRunning.com

Podcasts:

 Episode 24- Why we are horrible coaches- Part 1 | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

In this episode, Jon and I are coming at you together from Houston, Texas. In a rare podcast where we are actually face to face, we discuss why we are horrible coaches. Yes, we’re giving the trolls what they want and discussing all of the times we screwed up, made mistakes, and generally talk about why you probably shouldn’t listen to us. The point isn’t to create some sort of false modesty, but instead to take you through the mistakes we made and are still making and get coaches to understand that even though there are plenty of Guru’s who may claim otherwise,  no one really has the answers. It’s in the process of never ending learning and development that we grow as coaches. This multi-part podcast, starts with us discussing the things that make us bad coaches. From Jon’s inconsistency and almost bi-polar approach to coaching to my own lack of organization and ADD-esque style, we discuss our short comings and how we are attempting to either embrace or work on those issues. Lastly, if you enjoy the podcast, venture over to iTunes and rate it for us, thanks a lot!   Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx Resources mentioned: Nonsense: The Power of Not Knowing by Jamie Holmes Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe through RSS

 Episode 23- Accountability and Ownership- | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

In Episode 23 of the Magness & Marcus show, we talk about the importance of accountability and ownership. When success or failure comes, how you frame these outcomes can change not only each individuals motivation to succeed, but also whether they learn from their mistakes, and surprisingly how well the entire team does. We delve through a number of different issues, from how you handle failure impacts your willingness to compete, to the “checking out syndrome” that occurs when athletes feel they are entitled to a race result simply because of the hard work they put in. Getting away from goal setting, Jon discusses why he has athletes develop Minimum Performance Expectations to try and create a standard of excellence to live up to, and not just some pie in the sky goal to attain on a perfect day. Adding some science to the mix, we bring in research on how the least fit individual impacts the team the most, and that behaviors are contagious, just like your generic sickness is. In the end it’s about developing resilient, or Anti-Fragile, athletes and coaches who take responsibility for their performances and commit to learning from both success and failure. Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx Resources mentioned in this episode: Nonsense: The Power of Not Knowing by Jamie Holmes Connected: by Nicholas A. Christakis Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe through RSS

 Episode 23- Accountability and Ownership- | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

In Episode 23 of the Magness & Marcus show, we talk about the importance of accountability and ownership. When success or failure comes, how you frame these outcomes can change not only each individuals motivation to succeed, but also whether they learn from their mistakes, and surprisingly how well the entire team does. We delve through a number of different issues, from how you handle failure impacts your willingness to compete, to the “checking out syndrome” that occurs when athletes feel they are entitled to a race result simply because of the hard work they put in. Getting away from goal setting, Jon discusses why he has athletes develop Minimum Performance Expectations to try and create a standard of excellence to live up to, and not just some pie in the sky goal to attain on a perfect day. Adding some science to the mix, we bring in research on how the least fit individual impacts the team the most, and that behaviors are contagious, just like your generic sickness is. In the end it’s about developing resilient, or Anti-Fragile, athletes and coaches who take responsibility for their performances and commit to learning from both success and failure. Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx Resources mentioned in this episode: Nonsense: The Power of Not Knowing by Jamie Holmes Connected: by Nicholas A. Christakis Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe through RSS

 Episode 22- Outliers and the average- Who do we pay attention to? | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

In this episode of the Magness and Marcus podcast, we take on the concept of outliers and averages. Research and coaching practices tend to focus on a select demographic, whether that’s the WEIRD (Western, educated, and from industrialized, rich, and democratic countries) research or coaches focusing on the practices of those who speak English and publish books and articles. This focus on select groups shapes how we see the research and coaching world and impacts the conclusions we can take from it. It’s the assumption we make, that these results/ideas will translate regardless of what group we work with, that gets us in trouble. As always, we jump around a bit, focusing next on the idea of ingraining “being comfortable with being uncomfortable” as the key to running. Jon and I discuss the different ways to attack this, from trying to create mindfulness that translates into running workouts, to using outside stressors like ice baths to engender this mindset. What we’re ultimately trying to do is ingrain your reaction to uncomfortableness. Where you go in your head in training is where you will go when times get tough in racing.   Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx   Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe through RSS

 Episode 22- Outliers and the average- Who do we pay attention to? | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

In this episode of the Magness and Marcus podcast, we take on the concept of outliers and averages. Research and coaching practices tend to focus on a select demographic, whether that’s the WEIRD (Western, educated, and from industrialized, rich, and democratic countries) research or coaches focusing on the practices of those who speak English and publish books and articles. This focus on select groups shapes how we see the research and coaching world and impacts the conclusions we can take from it. It’s the assumption we make, that these results/ideas will translate regardless of what group we work with, that gets us in trouble. As always, we jump around a bit, focusing next on the idea of ingraining “being comfortable with being uncomfortable” as the key to running. Jon and I discuss the different ways to attack this, from trying to create mindfulness that translates into running workouts, to using outside stressors like ice baths to engender this mindset. What we’re ultimately trying to do is ingrain your reaction to uncomfortableness. Where you go in your head in training is where you will go when times get tough in racing.   Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx   Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe through RSS

 Episode 21- We have no idea what we’re doing- The Dunning-Kruger Effect and Coaching | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

In this episode of the Magness & Marcus show, we delve into the Dunning Kruger effect. You might not know the name of this cognitive bias, but it’s something we’re all familiar with. It refers to our inability to accurate assess our abilities. Novices tend to overestimate their abilities, while experts tend to do the opposite and underestimate their competence.  Or put in layman’s terms, it’s that friend who is 100% confident that he’s right on a subject which he is only vaguely familiar with. It’s this inability to accurately assess oneself that is the central theme of the podcast. We begin with how this impacts athletes and their racing. Starting with the phenomenon of “clueless” athletes having break throughs because they don’t realize who they are racing or that they ‘shouldn’t go with X athlete in the race. To the opposite effect where our runner who knows every stat about everyone in the race doesn’t let himself believe that he can go to the next level because of this information overload. We talk about the power of not knowing using examples from Olympians such as Moises Joseph, who doesn’t check entry lists to his races, to utilizing watch-less and feedback-less workouts and having the athletes guess how fast they ran each rep; so that they can calibrate the mismatch between their perceived abilities and their actual. To end, we turn the spotlight on ourselves and discuss how we over/under estimate our own knowledge and how it plays a role in our own coaching. In what I think is a very honest appraisal, we end with declaring that we have no idea what we’re doing. And it’s not just us, no one actually does, or perhaps that’s just us falling into the trap of the Dunning-Kruger effect. “The more people think that you’re really good, actually the stronger the fear of being a fraud is.” David Foster Wallace Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx Resources Discussed: You’re not so smart podcast on The Dunning-Kruger Effect Although of Course you end up Becoming Yourself: A road trip with David Foster Wallace: by David Lipsky   Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe through RSS

 Episode 21- We have no idea what we’re doing- The Dunning-Kruger Effect and Coaching | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

In this episode of the Magness & Marcus show, we delve into the Dunning Kruger effect. You might not know the name of this cognitive bias, but it’s something we’re all familiar with. It refers to our inability to accurate assess our abilities. Novices tend to overestimate their abilities, while experts tend to do the opposite and underestimate their competence.  Or put in layman’s terms, it’s that friend who is 100% confident that he’s right on a subject which he is only vaguely familiar with. It’s this inability to accurately assess oneself that is the central theme of the podcast. We begin with how this impacts athletes and their racing. Starting with the phenomenon of “clueless” athletes having break throughs because they don’t realize who they are racing or that they ‘shouldn’t go with X athlete in the race. To the opposite effect where our runner who knows every stat about everyone in the race doesn’t let himself believe that he can go to the next level because of this information overload. We talk about the power of not knowing using examples from Olympians such as Moises Joseph, who doesn’t check entry lists to his races, to utilizing watch-less and feedback-less workouts and having the athletes guess how fast they ran each rep; so that they can calibrate the mismatch between their perceived abilities and their actual. To end, we turn the spotlight on ourselves and discuss how we over/under estimate our own knowledge and how it plays a role in our own coaching. In what I think is a very honest appraisal, we end with declaring that we have no idea what we’re doing. And it’s not just us, no one actually does, or perhaps that’s just us falling into the trap of the Dunning-Kruger effect. “The more people think that you’re really good, actually the stronger the fear of being a fraud is.” David Foster Wallace Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx Resources Discussed: You’re not so smart podcast on The Dunning-Kruger Effect Although of Course you end up Becoming Yourself: A road trip with David Foster Wallace: by David Lipsky   Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe through RSS

 Episode 20- A Systems vs. Process Approach to Coaching | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

In Episode 20, Jon and I discuss the difference between a Systems and Process approach to coaching. What’s the difference? A systems based approach could be described as having a set formula/specific model for training. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Daniels, Coe, Lydiard, or any other coach. A systems approach means following that plan without giving proper consideration for the world surrounding it. In essence the system (i.e. doing mile reps on this day, threshold on this, and long runs on the weekend) is more important than the result. A process based approach flips that on it’s head and emphasizes the process of development. Recognizing that it’s not about improving variables in isolation, but instead the global improvement that we’re looking for. Jon likes to make the comparison that good process based coaching is a slow cooked meal, while a systems based approached is like cooking in the microwave. In another analogy, I brought up research by Brett Fajen that showed that during motor tasks, novices have a very fixed/rigid system where they can perform a task as long as it follows that defined task. Experts, on the other hand, have a flexible global model which allows for deviations outside of the fixed path. With this generalized model, the expert is able to deviate from the norm and still accomplish the task. That’s how systems vs. process coaching is. As a coach, you need to possess the ability to have a global model that allows deviation and flexibility. In the end, it’s similar to the idea expressed by Nassim Taleb “One cannot understand a macroscopic system by appealing to its components in isolation” It’s about looking at how athletes react during workouts. Having the comfort to adjust and change workouts on the fly AND not having athletes see that as a failure, but instead the coach doing their job in adjusting and making sure they hit the right effort level. It’s in these adjustments, just as Igloi masterfully performed with runner’s like Bob Schul over 50 years ago, where great coaching comes from. We go over some of our favorite ways to manipulate workouts mid-workout to gain success. Beyond what’s described you’ll get plenty of rants by both of us and a lot of energy and fun. We were definitely fired up discussing training, so hopefully you’ll find it as interesting as we did!   Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx Listen and Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe through RSS

 Episode 20- A Systems vs. Process Approach to Coaching | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

In Episode 20, Jon and I discuss the difference between a Systems and Process approach to coaching. What’s the difference? A systems based approach could be described as having a set formula/specific model for training. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Daniels, Coe, Lydiard, or any other coach. A systems approach means following that plan without giving proper consideration for the world surrounding it. In essence the system (i.e. doing mile reps on this day, threshold on this, and long runs on the weekend) is more important than the result. A process based approach flips that on it’s head and emphasizes the process of development. Recognizing that it’s not about improving variables in isolation, but instead the global improvement that we’re looking for. Jon likes to make the comparison that good process based coaching is a slow cooked meal, while a systems based approached is like cooking in the microwave. In another analogy, I brought up research by Brett Fajen that showed that during motor tasks, novices have a very fixed/rigid system where they can perform a task as long as it follows that defined task. Experts, on the other hand, have a flexible global model which allows for deviations outside of the fixed path. With this generalized model, the expert is able to deviate from the norm and still accomplish the task. That’s how systems vs. process coaching is. As a coach, you need to possess the ability to have a global model that allows deviation and flexibility. In the end, it’s similar to the idea expressed by Nassim Taleb “One cannot understand a macroscopic system by appealing to its components in isolation” It’s about looking at how athletes react during workouts. Having the comfort to adjust and change workouts on the fly AND not having athletes see that as a failure, but instead the coach doing their job in adjusting and making sure they hit the right effort level. It’s in these adjustments, just as Igloi masterfully performed with runner’s like Bob Schul over 50 years ago, where great coaching comes from. We go over some of our favorite ways to manipulate workouts mid-workout to gain success. Beyond what’s described you’ll get plenty of rants by both of us and a lot of energy and fun. We were definitely fired up discussing training, so hopefully you’ll find it as interesting as we did!   Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx Listen and Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe through RSS

 Episode 19-Phoebe Wright on mindsets, struggles, and what it takes to run professionally | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

In Episode 19 of the Magness & Marcus show, we have a special guest in professional runner, Phoebe Wright. In an eye opening interview, Phoebe opens up about her running story. Starting off with what her mindset was going from walk-on to NCAA champion and how that mindset shifted once she reached the professional ranks. Identifying it as having multiple Identity crisis’ in running, Phoebe talks about her strategy of “zooming in and zooming out” to handle the stress of running. By getting hyper focused, she can break stresses down into small but manageable bites, while using the opposite strategy of zooming out to see the big picture when faced with a different set of challenges. Phoebe reflects on the struggles she experienced in transitioning from the college ranks to the professional side, calling the two levels a “totally different sport”, describing how she had to shift from a results orientated focus to a process orientated one in order to deal with the demands that professional running brought. When reflecting on advice for young professionals, she points out that the number one factor in achieving success on the professional level is attitude and environment. Unlike what most people assume, Phoebe puts “training” way down on the list and instead insists “Find the environment that completes you as a person,” or as Amy Poehler put it “Treat your career like a bad boyfriend.” Before ending the podcast, Jon, Steve, and Phoebe discuss whether or not you have to live the “Runner/Spartan lifestyle” to make it on the professional level, or whether you can reach the highest levels with a degrees of balance. For any athlete looking at transitioning to the next level, or for anyone who wants an inside look at the reality and struggles of running professionally, this interview is a must listen to! Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx Listen and Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe through RSS     Resources mentioned in this episode:By Tina Fey

 Episode 19-Phoebe Wright on mindsets, struggles, and what it takes to run professionally | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

In Episode 19 of the Magness & Marcus show, we have a special guest in professional runner, Phoebe Wright. In an eye opening interview, Phoebe opens up about her running story. Starting off with what her mindset was going from walk-on to NCAA champion and how that mindset shifted once she reached the professional ranks. Identifying it as having multiple Identity crisis’ in running, Phoebe talks about her strategy of “zooming in and zooming out” to handle the stress of running. By getting hyper focused, she can break stresses down into small but manageable bites, while using the opposite strategy of zooming out to see the big picture when faced with a different set of challenges. Phoebe reflects on the struggles she experienced in transitioning from the college ranks to the professional side, calling the two levels a “totally different sport”, describing how she had to shift from a results orientated focus to a process orientated one in order to deal with the demands that professional running brought. When reflecting on advice for young professionals, she points out that the number one factor in achieving success on the professional level is attitude and environment. Unlike what most people assume, Phoebe puts “training” way down on the list and instead insists “Find the environment that completes you as a person,” or as Amy Poehler put it “Treat your career like a bad boyfriend.” Before ending the podcast, Jon, Steve, and Phoebe discuss whether or not you have to live the “Runner/Spartan lifestyle” to make it on the professional level, or whether you can reach the highest levels with a degrees of balance. For any athlete looking at transitioning to the next level, or for anyone who wants an inside look at the reality and struggles of running professionally, this interview is a must listen to! Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx Listen and Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes Subscribe through RSS     Resources mentioned in this episode:By Tina Fey

 Data overload- When and how to use Data for effective coaching | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

We’re back! After a couple week summer hiatus while I took some vacation time, Jon and I are back with an exciting podcast on Data.We start off with trying to get to the essence of splits. Coming at it from a philosophical viewpoint, we look at what workout splits actually tell us and trace our journey from reliant on pace zones and exacting splits to a more abstract view of paying attention to feel and letting the splits be secondary feedback. From there, we take a broad look at data and look at why it’s so easy to obsess over singular numbers. Whether it’s mileage per week, weight, or VO2max, it’s incredibly easy to fall in love with numbers that we can measure. Jon discusses why he doesn’t even track mileage. Instead of using mileage or workout splits as end goals, you should flip the script and use them as feedback. This culminates in a discussion on why as coaches and athletes we should get away from comparing workouts To finish things off, we talk about how to stay away from being a lazy coach. Meaning, don’t fall into the trap of writing prescriptions and not paying attention to the athlete. Take an athlete first approach to training and you’ll be fine. With data, it’s not about fancy gadgets or statistics, instead everything you see as a coach is data. How a person walks to practice, how they look at the end of each rep, their demeanor, even how they text or email; it’s all data. Determine what provides you actionable change and go with that.   Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx Listen and Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes   Subscribe through RSS

 Data overload- When and how to use Data for effective coaching | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

We’re back! After a couple week summer hiatus while I took some vacation time, Jon and I are back with an exciting podcast on Data.We start off with trying to get to the essence of splits. Coming at it from a philosophical viewpoint, we look at what workout splits actually tell us and trace our journey from reliant on pace zones and exacting splits to a more abstract view of paying attention to feel and letting the splits be secondary feedback. From there, we take a broad look at data and look at why it’s so easy to obsess over singular numbers. Whether it’s mileage per week, weight, or VO2max, it’s incredibly easy to fall in love with numbers that we can measure. Jon discusses why he doesn’t even track mileage. Instead of using mileage or workout splits as end goals, you should flip the script and use them as feedback. This culminates in a discussion on why as coaches and athletes we should get away from comparing workouts To finish things off, we talk about how to stay away from being a lazy coach. Meaning, don’t fall into the trap of writing prescriptions and not paying attention to the athlete. Take an athlete first approach to training and you’ll be fine. With data, it’s not about fancy gadgets or statistics, instead everything you see as a coach is data. How a person walks to practice, how they look at the end of each rep, their demeanor, even how they text or email; it’s all data. Determine what provides you actionable change and go with that.   Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx Listen and Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes   Subscribe through RSS

 Episode 17- Falling into the trap to do more | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

In the latest episode of the Magness and Marcus show, we discuss a familiar topic to all coaches, the trap to do more because you really don’t know what else to do. Yes, we’re talking about the age old problem of increasing work for the sake of increasing something. We begin with the diminished return and plateau effect and the mistaken and wrongly idealized linear growth mindset. From here, we delve into how to manipulate variables and stressors to take an athlete slightly beyond their comfort zones to insure adaptation. Jon and I both talk about how we never repeat the same exact key workouts and what are reasoning behind that decision is. After getting into the training a bit, we step back and take a look at some of the set patterns we fall into as coaches an athletes. Beginning with the issue of assigning importance to a component simply because we can now track or measure it, and then getting into relying on “default mode” workouts where we simply give a workout without really thinking about what we’re actually doing it. To get around this problem, we talk about responsive training and using a thinking pattern of breaking concepts down to their simplest components before trying to build them up. In this podcast we also mention enough books to keep you busy for a few months! Hopefully you all enjoy the podcast and let us know what you think.   Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx Listen and Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes   Subscribe through RSS  Resources mentioned in this episode: Upside of Stress  by Kelly McGonigal What makes Olga run? by Bruce Grierson Make it Stick by Peter Brown The Rise by Sarah Lewis TED talk- The first 20 hours– How to Learn Anything by Josh Kaufman

 Episode 17- Falling into the trap to do more | File Type: audio/mpeg | Duration: Unknown

In the latest episode of the Magness and Marcus show, we discuss a familiar topic to all coaches, the trap to do more because you really don’t know what else to do. Yes, we’re talking about the age old problem of increasing work for the sake of increasing something. We begin with the diminished return and plateau effect and the mistaken and wrongly idealized linear growth mindset. From here, we delve into how to manipulate variables and stressors to take an athlete slightly beyond their comfort zones to insure adaptation. Jon and I both talk about how we never repeat the same exact key workouts and what are reasoning behind that decision is. After getting into the training a bit, we step back and take a look at some of the set patterns we fall into as coaches an athletes. Beginning with the issue of assigning importance to a component simply because we can now track or measure it, and then getting into relying on “default mode” workouts where we simply give a workout without really thinking about what we’re actually doing it. To get around this problem, we talk about responsive training and using a thinking pattern of breaking concepts down to their simplest components before trying to build them up. In this podcast we also mention enough books to keep you busy for a few months! Hopefully you all enjoy the podcast and let us know what you think.   Steve and Jon @stevemagness @jmarpdx Listen and Subscribe: Subscribe on Stitcher Subscribe on iTunes   Subscribe through RSS  Resources mentioned in this episode: Upside of Stress  by Kelly McGonigal What makes Olga run? by Bruce Grierson Make it Stick by Peter Brown The Rise by Sarah Lewis TED talk- The first 20 hours– How to Learn Anything by Josh Kaufman

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