![Swift by Sundell show](https://d3dthqtvwic6y7.cloudfront.net/podcast-covers/000/076/647/small/swift-by-sundell.jpg)
Summary: Ellen Shapiro joins John to talk about all sorts of automated testing - unit tests, integration tests, UI test, you name it! The two also discuss Ellen's recent adventures into Kotlin and whether Kotlin Native could become a nice cross-platform solution for mobile apps. This episode of Swift by Sundell was made possible thanks to Ray Wenderlich. Check out their massive Black Friday sale before November 26th at store.raywenderlich.com.